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collinsbronco
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Posts: 311

What are your thoughts on the Flood? I have been studying this specific topic and was curious on others thoughts.

March 26, 2009 at 7:35 AM Flag Quote & Reply

arveetek
Member
Posts: 946

One of my favorite studies!

 

The Great Flood can explain almost everything that confuses scientists, and it can explain the earth we see around us today.  The Grand Canyon, the Royal Gorge, the Petrified Forest, etc, etc, can all be explained by the flood.  Millions of years of erosion?  Nah....just 40 days and nights of sheer destruction!!!!  How else can you explain fossilized trees upside down through several layers of geological strata?

 

Check out www.apologeticspress.org for tons of info on creation and the flood.

 

Casey

 

March 26, 2009 at 10:34 AM Flag Quote & Reply

CW4x4Him
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Posts: 598
I haven't done a lot of study on it, but I will share another resource for gobs of info. http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers/topic/flood If you haven't ever been to this site, it has a massive amount of information, mainly focused at Creationalism VS. Evolutionism and the age of the earth/universe. My father-in-law runs a private Christian School and I asked him what his thoughts on this subject were and how he taught his students. Here are the e-mails between us. And just as a note, my father-in-law always says "these are my opinions... feel free to have yours." =) "I came across a website (www.answersingenesis.org), and I've only read very little of what appears to be a massive amount of info on this site, but it basically looks like a collection of information on the debate of how old the earth is and the different way scientists have tried to determine the age of the earth. According to the people that put together this website, the earth is only about 6,000 years old. (and they attempt to explain how they arrive at this number using the Bible). They also try to explain the inaccuracies in the modern day "dating process". (Carbon dating) I love to watch the History channel and things like that and you will time and again hear dates that are well beyond 6,000 years. As you know, I'm sure, it is widely believed (very widely) that the earth is billions of years old. It is what every child in a public school is being taught. I've always held in the back of my mind that I would someday research this subject so that if someone asked me how old I think the earth is, I would be able to give my answer and why that is my answer. So I was just wondering if New Heights Christian School has ever touched on this subject with the students. Do you guys attempt to teach "the age of the earth"? Just curious." His response: Yes, the paces that the kids study go with the 6000 yr age. I, personally, don't see how anyone can come up with a reliable age. Even if they add the listed ages of everyone from Adam until now, they still have to figure how long it took for God to create the rest of the universe. And although I believe God could have created the world in 6 days, I don't believe He did. As far as carbon dating is concerned, that is a waste of time and extremely unreliable. For instance....if a doctor had of examined Adam 10 minutes after God created him, how old would you think they would have estimated him to be? 20 or so? Pro bably somewhere in that vicinity. But how old was he really? 10 minutes. Now use carbon dating for the rest of our world. Same thing. Therefore no one really has a clue. Curious subject but a little like wondering how many angels can stand on the head of a pen.
--

"Its life or death now. Make your choice.  Who's side are you on?"

March 26, 2009 at 10:56 AM Flag Quote & Reply

collinsbronco
Limited Member
Posts: 311

What does he mean " the rest of the universe" EVERYTHING was in 6 days from what I read.

March 26, 2009 at 6:54 PM Flag Quote & Reply

CW4x4Him
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Posts: 598
I think he means it is impossible for us to know what "6 days" actually means. I think he is saying that he doubts the 6 days is actually 6 days/144 hours as we know it today. It could be more, it could be less. I would say that any conclusion we come to regarding certian subjects and call a "belief" should be gently held. I think it's very important to be humble and accept that what we think we "know" could be wrong. But after saying that, I believe we must accept the Bible as absolute truth. There are some alarming statistics and research out there that show that many people that call themselves Christians don't hold the postion that the Bible is absolute truth. I say, how can you BE a Christian (follower of Christ) and NOT regard his teachings as TRUTH? No doubt, a complicated subject but we shouldn't allow certain things to be a challenge to our unity as Brothers and Sisters in the family of God. We should however know what we believe and why we believe it. (Apologetics) I believe that God's plan of salvation is simple enough for all men to understand and it is found, in it's simplicity in Acts 2:21 'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.' As long as you are calling on the name of the correct "LORD"... the God of the Bible and Jesus, the Way, the Truth and the Life, the Son of God who died for you and me.... not a "Jesus" that is what you want him to be. Sorry, this has nothing to with the flood. =)
March 27, 2009 at 11:16 AM Flag Quote & Reply

arveetek
Member
Posts: 946

As far as the 6 days go, Exodus 20:8-11 pretty much defines for us how long the creation days really were.


From verse 11: "For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day.  Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."


This passage is showing that God's chosen people at the time were to follow God's pattern and work for six days and then rest on the seventh.  The people understood this to mean six literal days, not long, undetermined amounts of time.


If God had meant something other than six days in Genesis, why didn't he say so?  I don't think Moses could have been much clearer.


I think that sometimes we make things much more complicated than they need to be.


The Bible says the God created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them in six days.  And so in order to believe in evolution AND the Bible, we have to try and squeeze in a bunch of time in there somewhere.  I think we should just let the Bible say what it says!


And yes, I understand Genesis to mean that God created everything, the entire universe, in those six days.  Why six days?  For a pattern, for an example.  He could have taken eons of time or he could have done it in an instant, but he chose to do it in six days for a specific purpose.


Casey


March 27, 2009 at 4:58 PM Flag Quote & Reply

CW4x4Him
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Posts: 598
Very good... I'm going to ask him why he said "although I believe God could have created the world in 6 days, I don't believe He did". This is good stuff... thank you Casey for your point of view! Keep it coming... I had been trying to get some dialog going on our old forum and didn't get a whole lot response...
March 27, 2009 at 5:38 PM Flag Quote & Reply

arveetek
Member
Posts: 946

Creation and the Flood are some of my favorite topics.  I think that a lot of us have grown up in a culture saturated with evolution and an old earth theology, and so as well-meaning Christians, we try to figure out how to belive in the Bible AND popular science.  The truth is, REAL science, (that is, science that takes the evidence and then draws a conclusion instead of the other way around), always supports the Bible.


Casey


March 28, 2009 at 9:27 PM Flag Quote & Reply

CW4x4Him
Limited Member
Posts: 598
I have a reply to share on this,(6 day creation) but I will wait until this evening when I can post it from home. For whatever reason, when posting from work, all of my lines run together and I can't format size, color, etc.
March 30, 2009 at 9:56 AM Flag Quote & Reply

CW4x4Him
Limited Member
Posts: 598
Response from my father-in-law, Richard:
I'm really not fixed in my opinion on how long it took for God to create everything but I do lean very heavily on it being 6 periods of time rather than 6 days. Here is why...
I believe the Bible ought to be translated literally unless it is obvious that it should not be. For instance [and there are many], in
Luke 2: 1And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed. So how is one to interpret this? Not literally. The Roman Empire didn't include the American Indians and therefore not all the world would be taxed. So logically, it means the Roman world. There would be no way anyone else could be taxed nor any method to collect the taxes. So this is figurative.
So what is a day to the Lord since He was the only One there and the creation information was relayed to man by revelation. This couldn't be a 24 hour period as determined by the rotation of the earth in relation to the sun because the sun wasn't even created until the 4th day. Plus God defined day as light on the very 1st day. So how long is a day to be determined by this definition? Who knows? Does this dismiss the possibility of each day being 24 hours? No, but why would God limit His creative ability to 6-24 hour periods when we know that God's idea of time is not anything like ours. 2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. And if He did, then we have to assume, based on literal translation, that God rested on the 7th day and therefore took a 24 hour respite of some sort. Literally, not one minute less or more and then got back to the business of being God. Therefore God gets tired and limits Himself to minutes. Not likely. So you see this can't be taken literally with any sense of ease. More than likely it is figurative and means God stopped working/creating after the 6th period of time and we should too. If this is to be taken literal, then God must have started working/creating again on the 8th day as we are permitted to do. A literal translation here holds many problems. There was a lesson to be learned and God used His creation time to teach it...command it.
Then we have the evidence of the dinosaurs, which we have no record of from the history of man. There is one mention of sea creatures in Isaiah 27:1 In that day the LORD will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,With His fierce and great and mighty sword,Even Leviathan the twisted serpent;And He will kill the dragon who lives in the sea. These creatures are probably symbolic as I doubt the Lord will actually fight with large fish or with whatever dragons are.
Dinosaur bones date back past the 7000 years attributed by Bible literalists by hundreds of thousands of years.
Now back to the definition of the day...here is a long quote that expresses this better than I. It is taken from Dr. Otto J. Helweg on his web site at http://www.leaderu.com/offices/o_helweg/eve-morn.html

That the Hebrew word for "day," yom, can mean a period of time other than 24 hours is abundantly evident. In Genesis 2:4 we read, "In the day that the Lord god made the earth and heavens..." (RSV). "Day" here refers to all the creations days, what ever we believe about their length. In fact, any student of Scripture can find at least nine meanings of yom. (Perhaps the easiest way is to use a computerized word search.) While it does most often refer to a 24-hour period, it is also used to mean time, today, forever, continually, an age, a life span, and perpetuity.

Perhaps the greatest obstacle to acceptance of the six creation days as long epochs is the "evening and morning" refrain framing each day's creation events. In fact, I have often seen it argued in creationist literature that this expression seals the case for a 24-hour interpretation. But the argument simply does not hold, and the basis for my statement is the Bible itself, not some obscure linguistic reference.

"Evening and morning" is an idiomatic expression in Semitic languages. Like all idioms, its meaning is nonliteral but clearly understood by native speakers. The phrase "evening and morning" can, like yom, denote a long and indefinite period. The Old Testament itself unambiguously uses the "evening and morning" phrase in just such a way. In Daniel 8 we read the account of Daniel's ram and goat vision and the interpretation given by Gabriel. The vision covers many years; some commentators believe the time has not yet been completed. Daniel 8:26 says, "The vision of the evenings and the mornings that have been given to you is true, but seal up the vision for it concerns the distant future" (RSV). In Hebrew manuscripts, "the evenings and mornings," is not in the plural but in the singular, identical to the expression we find in Genesis 1. Translated literally, the verse would red, "And the vision of the evening and the morning that has been given you" Here we have a clear indication from scriptural usage that this phrase does not demand a 24-hour-day interpretation and can refer to an indefinite epoch.

One might raise the objection that during the many years between the writing of Genesis and the writing of Daniel, the Hebrew usage could have changed, making the extrapolation from Daniel back to Genesis questionable. My response to such a challenge would be to underscore the stability of the ancient languages (perhaps due to the lack of general literacy and the rigorous professional training of those who served as scribes.) I see no way to escape this example of flexibility usage.

The method and length of time God used to create the heavens and the earth and life cannot be stated with absolute certainty from science, but these are matters for scientific inquiry, not for dogma. If only I could remove from those Christians who struggle with it the sense of threat they feel when presented with the possibility of long days and an old earth. I know it is linked with their supposition that to accept the fossil record and its time scale is to concede the case for a radically materialistic worldview, i.e., nontheistic evolution. But this supposition is false. In fact, if Christians would cease to attack paleontologists and biologists (among others), the researchers themselves would be free to raise more questions about the validity of their theories rather than combining forces to fend off Christian attacks. Let's not interfere with the investigative process. We Christians have everything to gain and nothing to lose from the advance of scientific discovery. For the God who speaks to us through His works of creation is the same God who speaks to us in the words of the Bible.

 

Therefore my conclusion concerning the Sabbath passage was that God used these 7 "days" to get man to understand what is the responsible way to do life. Work 6 days and rest one. Jesus stated as much in Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, " The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. So this was intentional by God to get man to do what is right for man. To rest and to give one's attention to God one day out of seven is the least we can do.
But did God work 6-24 hour days and then rest one 24 hour period? Doesn't seem likely. But the issue is really not the definition of the day but rather how do we interpret the Bible. Literally, figuratively, symbolically? Very carefully....and all three. That's the way I see it. Thanks for asking. If you have any more questions, ask. I appreciate your interest in God's word. Few have it. - Richard
So, I have heard great points on both sides of this subject and I can't say that I could commit to one side or the other yet.  But, more importantly, I am learning God's word... I am getting "food for the soul" so to speak.  What a wonderful adventure it is to explore the words straight from our Creator!
Here is one more commentary from the Christian Research Institue that deals directly with this subject.
March 31, 2009 at 11:22 AM Flag Quote & Reply

arveetek
Member
Posts: 946

Here are a couple of good articles answering some of the above questions:

 

http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/reprints/6-24hour.pdf

 

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/1672

 

Summary: "Yom" can be definitively translated when taken in context to mean literal, 24-hour days.  And again, Exodus 20 helps to define what the creation days were.

 

I have to ask myself this question: if Moses didn't intend for us to think of 24 hour days, why did he use language such as 'Evening and morning were the first day,' and etc.?

 

Casey

 

March 31, 2009 at 5:00 PM Flag Quote & Reply

POWERD BY CHRIST
Limited Member
Posts: 153

Man you guys get deep on these issues.  I'll chime in on creation.  I'm not saying I agree or disagree with what I'm throwing out because in the end its minor in my beliefs except when someone tries to disprove the Bible.  Many Theologians believe that creation as we know it took 7 literal days but your focus needs to be on vs1. In the beginning.........and the earth was w/out form and void and darkness moved upon the face of the waters..................Then God.  The literal greek has all of this as a seperate verse and ends with a pause (Gap Theory).  I'm not saying I totally believe this interpritation but it is fact that there is a pause prior to the 7 day creation.  God could have created the earth and left it for a day or a million years, then (remember a million years would be a day to God).....we really don't know the time frame or what happened before we pick up with the 7 day creation.  Also, time as stated above is not the same to God and I don't think we can simplify it in our minds by sticking to literal days.  Case and point the 70 weeks of Daniel.  Described as literal weeks of 7 days as well as not literal weeks for 69 weeks then the 70th week comes when?  There are so many examples in the Bible where we cannot trust our "human' definition of literal.  Just look at Paul, he knew the bible better than pretty much anyone and wrote much of it while walking hand and hand with God and truely believed the second coming would be in his life time.  He interprited based upon literal time.  I say all that to make the point that this is part of the beauty and mystery of being a Christian and being able to accept some things because God said it.  If everything was simple and laid out I don't think many people would ask questions about the Bible.  Things like this cause people to study, dig, debate, refute and ultimately think about God (Josh McDowell).  Remember time does not exist with God.  Explaining Gods time vs mans time is like explaining how Christ is 100% God and 100% man.   I was amazed just last week our SS teacher told a story of a street preacher who "turned him off" to God when he was young and lost.  Did the preacher turn him off or was that Gods method of causing him to think about God? I think there are some things we just need to leave to God and trust him.  Too many times we dig a hole for ourselves trying to explain God's mysteries.  I remember as a child dinasaurs did not exist and the world loves throwing that up and trying to make us explain it.  Its just good to be able to discuss these issues on a forum and focus of Christ.  As my preacher would say "ain't God good!!".

March 31, 2009 at 10:59 PM Flag Quote & Reply

CW4x4Him
Limited Member
Posts: 598

This is all relatively new to me.  I gave my life to Christ several years ago, but I admit (with reluctance) that I have only "went through the motions" most of those years.

 

My brother in law who is a pastor in Canada once clued me in on the depth of Creation theology... now I am starting to find out first hand what he meant.

 

Have you heard the hymm that says "things in this world will grow strangely dim"?.  It is definitely true in my life. Things of this world that used to have a great deal of my attention (success in my career, sports, money, etc) ARE, in fact, becoming less important in my life.  Those things are being replaced with family, church, Jesus Himself, and theology.... thank you, Father, for that.

 

"Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus"

 

Oh soul, are you weary and troubled?
No light in the darkness you see?

There's light for a look at the savior
And life more abundant and free

Turn your eyes upon Jesus
Look full in his wonderful face
And the things of earth will grow strangely dim
In the light of his glory and grace

Through death and into life everlasting
He passed and we followed him there
Over us sin no more hath dominion
For more than conquerors we are

Turn your eyes upon Jesus
Look full in his wonderful face
And the things of earth will grow strangely dim
In the light of his glory and grace

His word shall not fail you, he promised
Believe him and all will be well
Then go to a world that is dying
His perfect salvation to tell

Turn your eyes upon Jesus
Look full in his wonderful face
And the things of earth will grow strangely dim
In the light of his glory and grace

And the things of earth will grow strangely dim
In the light of his glory and grace.

April 1, 2009 at 9:37 AM Flag Quote & Reply

collinsbronco
Limited Member
Posts: 311

The one thing I have read about "gap theory" is The millions of years puts death, disease, and suffering before the fall of man and that is contrary to scripture.

 

The "gap theory" leaves room for re-interpretation and evolution ideas.

 

And last, Exodus 20:11 says "For in 6 days the Lord made the heavens and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the 7th. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it">>>no room for gap there.

 

For more reading on this topic, I would recommend "The New Answers Book" by Ken Ham.

April 1, 2009 at 7:46 PM Flag Quote & Reply

POWERD BY CHRIST
Limited Member
Posts: 153

I want to make it clear that I said I don't believe the gap theory as stated above thats why I said it could be a day or years.   I know a lot of theologians who believe in the theory but not to the extent stated.  They believe there could be time in verse 1 that is not accounted for in the 7 day creation (from a human standpoing).  Nothing necessarily happened, no fall of satan, no sin, no evolution.  I hope everyone understands my overall point that time, days, weeks are things so our simple minds can understand what God did and in the end the timeframe does not matter to anyone except those who try to discredit the bible.  Don't forget anytime you discuss anything in regards to Theology its similar to discussing denominations.  Take Baptists....fundemental, southern, free will, independent...etc.  They all believe the "Gospel" but vary greatly in their Theology on many issues.  As I said, asking these questions and digging into Scripture is how many of us started learning about the Bible and it constantly challenges us to learn and grow in our knowledge and in our relationship with God. I hope and prey that I never come across as argumentative because I've been looking for a forum like this for years to learn and challenge me to study my Bible more.  I've studied God's word but not to the extent I did years ago when I attended a Bible college.  I really do appreciate you allowing me to jump in with both feed and share my heart as well as stick my foot in my mouth on occasion.   I'm just waiting for you guys to dive into predestination, forknowledge, free will and all that good stuff.:D 

April 1, 2009 at 11:18 PM Flag Quote & Reply

CW4x4Him
Limited Member
Posts: 598

:)  I appreciate your input... keep it coming.  It's a wonderful journey, isn't it?  I've never had formal teaching like from a Bible college, so there is so much that is new to me and it's really got me fired up lately as far as exploring theology and the Bible in general.

It is also nice to discuss things like this and toss around thoughts and ideas with people like you guys in an enviroment that is "flak free".  I feel it a privilege to be be a part of it.

So what about predestination???

I'm kidding... I've read a novels worth of material on creation lately, I think I need a break and  I'll go back to "current events" for awhile... =P

April 1, 2009 at 11:48 PM Flag Quote & Reply

collinsbronco
Limited Member
Posts: 311

Glad you guys are giving input and sharing. This does help give me the want to open the bible and look even more. Who starts the next topic!!!??

April 2, 2009 at 6:23 PM Flag Quote & Reply

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