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POWERD BY CHRIST
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Posts: 153

I've been thinking and reading on this issue for several years.  I'm basing most of my thoughts on Galations 5:19-26.

19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

I constantly hear Preachers talk about the "Fruits of the Spirit" but seldom hear them go into detial on the verses prior.  Best I can tell Galations makes it clear that Paul is addressing the "Church" at Galatia.  He's addressing people who call themselves Christians and go to Church.  Here is my question.  WHERE DO WE DRAW THE LINE WITH PEOPLE WHO CALL THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS (people who attend Church, witness, pray and are "spiritual") BUT STILL PARTAKE IN THE ACTIVITIES LISTED ABOVE?  I've read this passage over and over and it always comes out the same.  Paul is repeating what Christ said in regards to people going to Church and even preaching but they will not see the Kingdom of God.  At what point do we move from telling someone what Paul said about sin to being too judgemental?  Paul was pretty clear when he said if you do these things you will not see the Kingdom.  In most cases people get mad or say we are judging but I look at it like I'm fighting for their soul.  Sometimes I think the word "conviction" is the most over used word in the Christian vocab.  So many people do things and say they are not "convicted".  Again, if you read what Paul said it was a MANDATE and appeal to save them...He never inferred you can do those things if your not convicted.  This is not the occasional "oops" sin.  These are all habitual sins that are part of their lifestyle.  No deep theology, just wanted the opinions of other brothers and sisters.  I also think this goes way beyond the excuse of our "sin nature" or Paul would have address that as well?  Right? 

April 1, 2009 at 11:40 PM Flag Quote & Reply

CW4x4Him
Limited Member
Posts: 598

Quote: "In most cases people get mad or say we are judging"

 

Or we are called biggots b/c we take a stand against abortion, gay marriage and adoption, etc.

 

Remember: 9Blessed are the peacemakers,
      for they will be called sons of God.
 10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
      for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

 11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.

Matthew 5:9-11 (NIV)

April 2, 2009 at 12:01 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Justin
Limited Member
Posts: 12

I agree with the original post I think they we have become too politically correct to call out sin. I think Gods direction is essential when dealing with this situation, he will give you the right words to say when talking about sin, it seems like there are usually two extreme stances on this people who let anything go because "were a fallen being" and then the legalistic side that has to live by works. I think God makes it very clear what is expected of a christian, but " it is a hard word to hear"

--

He lifted me out of the pit of despair, out of the mud and the mire. He set my feet on solid ground and steadied me as I walked along. Psalms 40:2

July 29, 2011 at 4:58 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Hemi
Limited Member
Posts: 189
I can't quote chapter and verse, but it is clear to me we should not be judging. I think many Christians are too vocal in calling out sin, or rather not vocal enough in expressing love for the sinner In the Gospals it says - judge not lest you be judged, for as you forgive the sins of others against you so shall your sins will be forgiven, and as you measure others you will be given a full measure. Also, the parable about why do you worry about a speck in your neighbors eye while you have a plank in your own? And in Romans Pauls says Why do you look down on each other? Why do you put obstacles in each others way? Don't you realize you will all kneel before the Lord in the seat of Judgement? Or as I was raised, hate the sin, but love the sinner. We can condemn the sin but need to reach out to the sinner as our brother/sister at the same time.
July 29, 2011 at 5:22 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Hemi
Limited Member
Posts: 189

Not to mention the story of the woman about to be stoned, where Jesus turns to the crowd and says He is without sin may cast the first stone. When the crowd disperses, he says to the woman "who here accuses you" She responds "no one" and Jesus says "than neither do I. Go, and sin no more"

 

I think we often miss that spirit of forgiveness

July 29, 2011 at 5:34 PM Flag Quote & Reply

We Be Rockin'
Member
Posts: 599

Are Christians judgemental?  As a long time Baptist, I would say most are.

It is but another sin that Satan uses to divide and conquer, to destroy unity in the church.  

I used to be SOOO critical of people who didn't think, act, or do what I thought was right, but God has revealed to me over the years that I was merely adding to my already long list of sins by doing so.  

I believe if any of us, read ALL of us, would sit down and honestly evaluate our lives, we would find that we have so much work to do on ourselves that we would NEVER have time to judge anyone else.   

We tend to look at other's lives with a microscope while seeing ours through a "limo-tinted window".   1st COR 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Paul is saying here that we only see a vague reflection of ourselves, but in Heaven we shall have perfect understanding.  We shall see ourselves as God sees us.  Every dark thought, every secret that we may keep from the world?  We may think, we may even believe, that we can be all self-righteous, looking down on people different from ourselves, people who's sins are out in the open, people who drive Hummers, but on the Day of Reckoning, the dark tint will be stripped away and our souls will be laid bare.  

Just think about how many times a day you reach snap judgement about others?   Someone driving in the left lane on the interstate must be an "idiot".  The kid with the nose ring and tattoo is a "druggie".  The heavy-set lady with the 6 kids using food stamps is "lazy" and "living off my taxes".  

How do we know any of this?  WE don't..., God does.   Why do we do this?  Maybe we don't want to face our own sin, so we comfort ourselves in knowing that everyoine else is "so much worse!"      That's not how God see it.    

One of my favorite verses, one that God uses to humble me frequently, is found in James 4:12- "There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?"

God is saying, "WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE, really?  You think you can judge MY work?"   We are all children of his creation.

This verse reminds me of Job: 38.4.   Job has been declaring to God back in verse 31 that he has done everything right, so why is he being allowed to suffer all this loss?   God comes back with, "Were you there when I laid the foundations of the earth?  If so, remind me again how we did that?   Were you holding the other end of the tape measure?"  

God knew that we would have problems with judging others, whether through arrogance or ignorance.   If you have a problem with being overly critical (which is judging), whether it be of your wife, your children, friends, co-workers, or complete strangers, keep in mind that we are told to "love our neighbors", not judge them.  It is through love that we lead others to Christ, that we lead our families in following the Lord.

   

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August 1, 2011 at 12:32 PM Flag Quote & Reply

POWERD BY CHRIST
Limited Member
Posts: 153
I forgot about this post but glad to see its still getting comments. I'm very torn on this subject when it comes to the "Church". In Galations Paul is addressing the Church and those who claim to be Christians. This is the issue between sinning and "continuing in sin". Is there a fine line between judging and doing as Christ and the Disciples when they warned the "Church" of their impending doom if they continued down their path. At what point do we warn people "In Love" that going to Church and talking about Christ does not make them a true Christian? I totally agree with not judging but what about warning.
August 1, 2011 at 6:48 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Justin
Limited Member
Posts: 12

I definitely agree that judging sinners is not what Christ called us to do, that he DID call us to show his love to the world and that is what people will be saved by not calling out sin. I was commenting more about christians and how easy it is to water down the Bible till anything is acceptable, I like this discussion because I deal with this, it seems like one day I read something in the Bible and its clear it says something is a sin, then time goes by and before I know it I have justified it somehow. The more I read in the Bible it clear that there will always be the spirit and flesh in a person but I like what Paul says in Gal 5:16 "So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature." I really like Paul's sayings because he was not "raised in church" he was what he thought to be "the chief of sinners" and I can relate to that.  

--

He lifted me out of the pit of despair, out of the mud and the mire. He set my feet on solid ground and steadied me as I walked along. Psalms 40:2

August 2, 2011 at 9:20 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Hemi
Limited Member
Posts: 189

Justin at August 2, 2011 at 9:20 AM

I definitely agree that judging sinners is not what Christ called us to do, that he DID call us to show his love to the world and that is what people will be saved by not calling out sin. I was commenting more about christians and how easy it is to water down the Bible till anything is acceptable, I like this discussion because I deal with this, it seems like one day I read something in the Bible and its clear it says something is a sin, then time goes by and before I know it I have justified it somehow. The more I read in the Bible it clear that there will always be the spirit and flesh in a person but I like what Paul says in Gal 5:16 "So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature." I really like Paul's sayings because he was not "raised in church" he was what he thought to be "the chief of sinners" and I can relate to that.  

When asked by the Pharisees or Saducees (I cannot recall which) what was the most important law, Jesus said to "love the Lord thy God with all your heart, and all your mind, and all your soul, and the second is like unto it, to love thy neighbor as thyself"

 

In Romans Paul tells us that we were given 10 commandments, but if we follow these two, we won't break any of the others. Because anyone who truly loves God and loves his neighbor will not live a sinful life.Pretty sure it is Romans - will look it up tonight if I get a chance.

August 2, 2011 at 10:34 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Justin
Limited Member
Posts: 12

Yeah that would be cool to know. It made me think of 1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. That shows how important love is! I don't remember  reading what your talking about in Romans but its sounds like good stuff!

--

He lifted me out of the pit of despair, out of the mud and the mire. He set my feet on solid ground and steadied me as I walked along. Psalms 40:2

August 2, 2011 at 11:15 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Hemi
Limited Member
Posts: 189

Romans 13 : 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

There is another passage I had in mind, but this is to the point too,

August 2, 2011 at 12:21 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Justin
Limited Member
Posts: 12

Yeah it is, that is some good Bible study material. I have realized the more I study that I will never be "good enough" that is why Jesus had to die and makes intercessory for me, but at the same time that can't be an excuse to not try. Jesus knows our heart so I can take comfort in that, he knows if I am trying or not.

--

He lifted me out of the pit of despair, out of the mud and the mire. He set my feet on solid ground and steadied me as I walked along. Psalms 40:2

August 2, 2011 at 1:35 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Hemi
Limited Member
Posts: 189

People often have an affinity for one book or another, to me it has always been Romans (and Isaiah and Matthew)

 

Romans 15: 1 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

 

1 Peter 4:8 Above all love each other deeply, because love covers a multitude of sins 

August 2, 2011 at 1:58 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Justin
Limited Member
Posts: 12

I love Romans it seems like everything in it is so powerful and relevant to what goes on in everyday life. When I read Romans 15 it made me think of the different denominations and how we should fight each other over food, clothes or other traditions or sort, instead working together to edify each other. I think Galatians is my book like that. I could read over and over and get something different each time!

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He lifted me out of the pit of despair, out of the mud and the mire. He set my feet on solid ground and steadied me as I walked along. Psalms 40:2

August 2, 2011 at 3:36 PM Flag Quote & Reply

We Be Rockin'
Member
Posts: 599

Matthew 22:37-Then one of the Pharisees, being an expert in the law, asked Jesus, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the law?"

Jesus replied, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind, this is the first and greatest commandment.  And the second is, "Love your neighbor as yourself.",  All the law and all of the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Back to the OP question, we are called to speak the truth in love, and if anyone has tried that much, you will find a pretty frosty reception most of the time, because people, whether believers or non-believers, really don't much like to hear the truth.  To paraphrase Mr. Nicholson, "THEY CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!"  

The truth is hard food, the truth causes one to have to deal with uncomfortable situations and account for poor behavior.    It's MUCH easier just to eat the oatmeal of the world, no chewing, no discomfort, just leave the unpleasantries on your plate.

The bible calls for us to confront our brothers and sisters in Christ,  Matthew 18: “If your brother or sister[b] sins,[c] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[d] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector."  We are to turn away from them (in fellowship, not love).

If we are attempting to deliver the message of salvation and are rebuffed,  Matthew 10:14 tells us to "shake the dust of that land off our sandals" and move on down the road.  

Speaking the truth in love sounds easy, but try it and you'll quickly find out the truth is not in demand much these days.   

Reminds me of that commercial on TV when Abe Lincoln's wife asks him if her dress makes her butt look big.   After a few moments, he says, "Maybe just a little."  Poor Abe!

--


August 2, 2011 at 4:49 PM Flag Quote & Reply

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"He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the mud and mire, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings."

Psalms 40:2

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